Tereza, I was not aware that you coined the phrase "tonic masculinity." I added my own perspectives and perception to the concept in a two-part article on my Stack (although I have only posted Part 1 so far). Will you share a link to your initial post on tonic masculinity? If so, I will add it to my "Part 2" before posting.
The article of mine that you referenced was not about tonic masculinity, but about identity in general. Just as I appropriated the term ‘intersectionality’, I appropriated your conception of tonic as a contrast to toxic. I knew that Jay drew this term from you because he said so explicitly in his initial article on the subject. In the only paragraph in my article in which I reference tonic masculinity I link to Jay’s article, which I thought would be sufficient. I can see now that this assumption was unfounded. To correct the record I left a detailed footnote crediting you with the genesis of the term tonic as it pertains to my usage of the term as a virtuous contrasting adjective to toxic viciousness at the end of the paragraph in question.
As to the content of your article, there is something that really stood out to me that I’d like to comment on. You attempt to characterize the Tonic 7’s conception of ‘tonic masculinity’, a complex topic based on the intersection of abstract concepts like identity, virtue, vice, purpose, and meaning based on observing a casual hour-long conversation between 8 participants. While I understand that it is difficult if not impossible to appreciate situated within the longhouse, just because we’ve identified ourselves as a group does not mean that there is any kind of consensus between us on this topic or any other. If I had to identify one thing that we all agree on, it is that searching for truth is good, and that it is always best to attempt to know and understand truth regardless of the consequences. Even there we may have some disagreement among us. To tell you the truth, I don’t think any of us are particularly interested in masculinity as a topic of focus at this point, although it is no doubt related to the ongoing spiritual crisis we are all grappling with to one extent or another. I feel compelled to point this out because I hope that it clarifies something that might interest you. We don’t need to agree with each other as to what ‘tonic masculinity’ is to be on the same side. I’ve read several of your articles and especially enjoy the one on the history of the constitutional convention. I have little doubt we are on the same side. I also have little doubt we will ever agree about the ‘true’ meaning of the term I am happy to credit you with coining. I believe what is optimally ‘tonic’ in any given circumstance varies just as widely as nature itself. There are no one-size-fits-all solutions for humanity, even ones that sound great like focusing on the children.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on my tonic intersectionality piece that you referenced, because it is only tangentially related to masculinity.
Thank you for birthing this term and thank you for standing by it despite the interlopers and ransackers.
I still think about writing about this concept when I have time but I am at 6 days a week, 12 hours a day for my day job and tryna sort out my book self-publishing and garden so I am stretched a bit thin for the moment.
Wishing you a spring time filled with fragrant blossoms, verdant forests and germinating seeds full of potential.
I am not sure your reading (listening?) of the Tonic 7 episode is quite accurate. I do not take away quite the same things as you seem to. Although I agree that there is a great deal of difference in how we all approach the topic, I don’t think anyone is describing misogynists just a hair short of psychopathy as tonically masculine. :)
It is fair to say there is a bit of frustration with the over feminization of society. I would describe that as a mix of applying the blank slate model of humans to all institutions as though men and women do not have different proclivities and needs, and a bleeding of a toxic femininity into all realms of western life. Others might describe it differently, but it is not anti-woman any more than being anti-violent crime makes you anti-man.
“it’s clear to me that we need to heal the heart of the world. It will take women and men together to do that, especially men like these who are complex, original thinkers and excellent writers.”
Another Hy-jacking of A beautiful thing described by you and the fellow you commented on. Maybe the way you defined it was catching on. Highest form of love, imo to give your life for someone else. At the very least, these guys must be young, they don't sound mature and at worst sinister.
Apr 19, 2023·edited Apr 19, 2023Liked by Tereza Coraggio
Well, we tangled with JR, who put you on blast for the "Forgive Hitler" video. After watching a bit, it was clear he hadn't, and we returned to let him know he'd misconstrued your point. He promptly shit his pants, and it went around for entirely too many posts. He's kind of incapable of working with nuance, from what we saw.
Then he posted this, clearly in reaction to this encounter:
"There's a point where you say “Okay. I'm done here.”
I reached that point this morning, when I found myself arguing with another Substacker over something so ridiculous I would be hard-pressed to explain it to anyone who doesn't spend all their waking hours online."
Imagine having your mind blown that hard by a simple disagreement that you actually need to leave the platform. Unfortunately, he probably still thinks we're the crazy ones.
I didn't know about your interactions with Jay concerning this term, which regretfully seem to have taken an unpleasant turn. Looks like we would all owe royalties for using this term to you, should you decide to copyright it, though it looks you may run into problems establishing your parentage of this phrase, as others may make competing claims to it, like the writer cited in this article from 2019: https://fcpp.org/2019/05/06/tonic-masculinity/
About the Longhouse, I feel I must defend Frog Twitter's honor against charges of genocide enjoyment. The metaphor is entirely unrelated to the Iroquois Confederation; Amerindians aren't much of a topic of conversation at all, really, and when they're brought up at all in a historical context in those circles it's generally in a positive light.
The metaphor rather originated in reference to the neolithic farming cultures of Europe, who - according to some narratives - were a goddess-worshipping, matrifocal culture. The Longhouse then becomes a symbol for the gynocratic society that crushes the spirits of its young men, lest they upset the order, and thereby achieves cultural stasis at the expense of vitality. Of course this also makes such a culture quite defenseless, and so they were displaced via conquest by the Aryan invasion from the steppe, with the Aryan religion being focused on Dyeus Pater, the Sky Father, reflecting their patriarchal warrior culture.
This is almost certainly a mythologized account, which may or may not have any resemblance to the actual historical cultures of Bronze Age Europe. However this is the sense in which the Longhouse must be understood - as an articulation of one of the two founding tendencies in European culture itself. It's got nothing at all to do with the Iroquois.
The theft and inversion of women's ideas (IP) by men is the bane of our human history. LOL this is HIS house. LOLOL. What a bully and frat boy. The very kind of male they grew up disdaining until they could become keyboard bully boyz themselves. KEEP SPEAKING UP against this PARASITISM.
Tereza, fair points but ultimately to me as a male, family man etc - meh! WHO CARES? Also Candice is a sock puppet. Do you know who her husband and father in law are?
This back-story is fascinating, Tereza. I intend to attempt to call this to those of the 'tonic 7' that I may be able to reach.
Tereza, I was not aware that you coined the phrase "tonic masculinity." I added my own perspectives and perception to the concept in a two-part article on my Stack (although I have only posted Part 1 so far). Will you share a link to your initial post on tonic masculinity? If so, I will add it to my "Part 2" before posting.
The article of mine that you referenced was not about tonic masculinity, but about identity in general. Just as I appropriated the term ‘intersectionality’, I appropriated your conception of tonic as a contrast to toxic. I knew that Jay drew this term from you because he said so explicitly in his initial article on the subject. In the only paragraph in my article in which I reference tonic masculinity I link to Jay’s article, which I thought would be sufficient. I can see now that this assumption was unfounded. To correct the record I left a detailed footnote crediting you with the genesis of the term tonic as it pertains to my usage of the term as a virtuous contrasting adjective to toxic viciousness at the end of the paragraph in question.
As to the content of your article, there is something that really stood out to me that I’d like to comment on. You attempt to characterize the Tonic 7’s conception of ‘tonic masculinity’, a complex topic based on the intersection of abstract concepts like identity, virtue, vice, purpose, and meaning based on observing a casual hour-long conversation between 8 participants. While I understand that it is difficult if not impossible to appreciate situated within the longhouse, just because we’ve identified ourselves as a group does not mean that there is any kind of consensus between us on this topic or any other. If I had to identify one thing that we all agree on, it is that searching for truth is good, and that it is always best to attempt to know and understand truth regardless of the consequences. Even there we may have some disagreement among us. To tell you the truth, I don’t think any of us are particularly interested in masculinity as a topic of focus at this point, although it is no doubt related to the ongoing spiritual crisis we are all grappling with to one extent or another. I feel compelled to point this out because I hope that it clarifies something that might interest you. We don’t need to agree with each other as to what ‘tonic masculinity’ is to be on the same side. I’ve read several of your articles and especially enjoy the one on the history of the constitutional convention. I have little doubt we are on the same side. I also have little doubt we will ever agree about the ‘true’ meaning of the term I am happy to credit you with coining. I believe what is optimally ‘tonic’ in any given circumstance varies just as widely as nature itself. There are no one-size-fits-all solutions for humanity, even ones that sound great like focusing on the children.
I’d love to hear your thoughts on my tonic intersectionality piece that you referenced, because it is only tangentially related to masculinity.
Thank you for birthing this term and thank you for standing by it despite the interlopers and ransackers.
I still think about writing about this concept when I have time but I am at 6 days a week, 12 hours a day for my day job and tryna sort out my book self-publishing and garden so I am stretched a bit thin for the moment.
Wishing you a spring time filled with fragrant blossoms, verdant forests and germinating seeds full of potential.
I am not sure your reading (listening?) of the Tonic 7 episode is quite accurate. I do not take away quite the same things as you seem to. Although I agree that there is a great deal of difference in how we all approach the topic, I don’t think anyone is describing misogynists just a hair short of psychopathy as tonically masculine. :)
It is fair to say there is a bit of frustration with the over feminization of society. I would describe that as a mix of applying the blank slate model of humans to all institutions as though men and women do not have different proclivities and needs, and a bleeding of a toxic femininity into all realms of western life. Others might describe it differently, but it is not anti-woman any more than being anti-violent crime makes you anti-man.
“it’s clear to me that we need to heal the heart of the world. It will take women and men together to do that, especially men like these who are complex, original thinkers and excellent writers.”
Beautifully said ❤️
Another Hy-jacking of A beautiful thing described by you and the fellow you commented on. Maybe the way you defined it was catching on. Highest form of love, imo to give your life for someone else. At the very least, these guys must be young, they don't sound mature and at worst sinister.
Well, we tangled with JR, who put you on blast for the "Forgive Hitler" video. After watching a bit, it was clear he hadn't, and we returned to let him know he'd misconstrued your point. He promptly shit his pants, and it went around for entirely too many posts. He's kind of incapable of working with nuance, from what we saw.
https://substack.com/profile/3453525-jay-rollins/note/c-14769981
Then he posted this, clearly in reaction to this encounter:
"There's a point where you say “Okay. I'm done here.”
I reached that point this morning, when I found myself arguing with another Substacker over something so ridiculous I would be hard-pressed to explain it to anyone who doesn't spend all their waking hours online."
https://www.wonderlandrules.com/p/hitting-pause
Imagine having your mind blown that hard by a simple disagreement that you actually need to leave the platform. Unfortunately, he probably still thinks we're the crazy ones.
I didn't know about your interactions with Jay concerning this term, which regretfully seem to have taken an unpleasant turn. Looks like we would all owe royalties for using this term to you, should you decide to copyright it, though it looks you may run into problems establishing your parentage of this phrase, as others may make competing claims to it, like the writer cited in this article from 2019: https://fcpp.org/2019/05/06/tonic-masculinity/
What a saga!
About the Longhouse, I feel I must defend Frog Twitter's honor against charges of genocide enjoyment. The metaphor is entirely unrelated to the Iroquois Confederation; Amerindians aren't much of a topic of conversation at all, really, and when they're brought up at all in a historical context in those circles it's generally in a positive light.
The metaphor rather originated in reference to the neolithic farming cultures of Europe, who - according to some narratives - were a goddess-worshipping, matrifocal culture. The Longhouse then becomes a symbol for the gynocratic society that crushes the spirits of its young men, lest they upset the order, and thereby achieves cultural stasis at the expense of vitality. Of course this also makes such a culture quite defenseless, and so they were displaced via conquest by the Aryan invasion from the steppe, with the Aryan religion being focused on Dyeus Pater, the Sky Father, reflecting their patriarchal warrior culture.
This is almost certainly a mythologized account, which may or may not have any resemblance to the actual historical cultures of Bronze Age Europe. However this is the sense in which the Longhouse must be understood - as an articulation of one of the two founding tendencies in European culture itself. It's got nothing at all to do with the Iroquois.
Be a weak, obedient, soy boy, date your own gender, or your toxic
May help broaden your perspective, Tereza?
https://helendale.substack.com/p/feminisation-has-consequences-i
I found it excellent, as did those who called it to my attention.
we’ve also got a significant portion of population that doesn’t want to grow up & government has been eagerly filling the void.
The theft and inversion of women's ideas (IP) by men is the bane of our human history. LOL this is HIS house. LOLOL. What a bully and frat boy. The very kind of male they grew up disdaining until they could become keyboard bully boyz themselves. KEEP SPEAKING UP against this PARASITISM.
Tereza, fair points but ultimately to me as a male, family man etc - meh! WHO CARES? Also Candice is a sock puppet. Do you know who her husband and father in law are?