Friend and fellow Apocaloptimist Tonika of Visceral Adventures joined me to explore the monetary system in my book, How to Dismantle an Empire. We talked about credentialed clowning, the mind as the last frontier, and Goddess jiu jitsu. Tereza explained her proposal to take monetary power away from bankers by having communities create their own credit systems backed by local housing, with carets that can be used for specific categories like food, wellcare, education, home improvement and community projects. Tonika shared her background as a Bulgarian immigrant, mother, theater director, and owner of Visceral Adventure Lounge in Chicago, discussing how her experiences with free-range parenting and community building informed her perspective. They explored practical challenges including how to handle intellectual property, manage relationships between different hamlets, and transition from the current imperial currency system. The conversation also touched on the unintended consequence of the CovidCon in creating honest online relationships and a hunger for real-world hugs and smiles.
I haven’t stopped thinking about the conversation because I wholeheartedly believe our current monetary system sucks and is in desperate need of an overhaul. I wish I knew more on the subject of economics. I appreciate you giving me a chance to share my pedestrian perspective on it. Ultimately, I still find our challenge to lie within human behavior and the leviathan that is the pre existing empirical structure. But we can start with making sure the bankers don’t make money up out of thin air. That is a solid start.
I will share your post on my stack in the upcoming days too. Many thanks again.
I am continuing our conversation in my head also. I loved this even more listening to it. We have SO much to talk about when we see each other. But I have a feeling that will only lead to more unfinished threads pulling us together for the next time!
Your challenge is why my book blurb says that my dogma is that people are inherently good and, when they behave badly, systems and stories are to blame. If human nature is inherently good or bad, with some people morally better than other, the only solution is to get those better people to rule over all of us! That's been the argument for empire for 5000 years.
Oh wait! You said human behavior, not nature. Then my answer is that I don't tell Goddess how to do her job, which is handling all the things out of my control. I listen to find out how I can do my part. So very very happy that my joyful part has led to you!
Very glad to see more of this series and you both! Before this came out I was recently thinking that my go-to response to people saying "X political fight is the point of no return" is telling them they need to read How to Dismantle an Empire. That's where you saying "you stop the bankers from making money at our expense all at once or not at all" gets to the meat of it.
I've also been somewhat more disengaged from online commentary and ingesting information, but a lot of that has to do with me trying to get outside and enjoy the summer. In a time were you can generate anything that can look "good enough" I am often asking myself what actually needs to be said. It's been wonderful to see the VAL blossom and I know you'll greatly enjoy meeting! I really loved what you said Tereza about online connections often being a lot deeper and meaningful than connections via mere geography. I can personally say that's something I find myself missing a lot as my life has shifted around.
Speaking as someone a generation later, I would definitely say younger people are desperate to actually participate in the work of society, there just seem to be all these inane barriers like the ones your son-in-law encounters. I remember a conversation we had years ago Tereza, where you told me the collapse was inevitable, and I'll admit I didn't quite understand at the time. I think I'm beginning to actually see it. I jokingly told someone recently "we've run out of corners to cut and all we see are circles".
Great conversation, and I'm definitely looking forward to future installments!
I was just thinking about you, Gabe. My email from Substack became sporadic and I can't tell if people are posting and I'm not getting them, or not posting. I'm so honored to be your go-to response. Every conversation, with Victoria, with you, with Tonika, seems like it's bring that strategy to life. I've never had others seriously engage with the ideas before. In the struggle to understand it, you make it accessible to others and help me clarify my thinking and presentation. You've been so central to that process, Gabe. Thank you!
That realization--that it will happen all at once or not at all--has been a long time coming for me to formulate. I so often get people saying, 'It's going to take a long time, probably not in my lifetime.' There's as good a chance it happens in our lifetime as 50 generations from now. The conditions are optimal.
I'm glad to hear you're also getting into real life and nature. And when I thought of what I didn't want to lose from online connections, I thought of you. And Isaac Middle. I think perhaps he should be the next person I interview.
Love your phrase, 'we've run out of corners to cut and all we see are circles.' Great to hear from you and someday we'll make that in-person connection happen. Where are you in Canada?
I'm in Ottawa! I really would love to do a USA trip sometime as well. I'm assuming I'm not yet enough of a problem that crossing customs is an issue 😅
I've always appreciated your thoughtful feedback and can admit to feeling painfully disappointed when I talk to new people IRL. I'm recognizing the drastic difference between being seen physically and being actually understood. It's made being out in the world a very bittersweet experience.
I recognize the natural anti-labelism in Tonika right from the start of this video, love it!
I like your observation about being good at something comes before enjoyment and that everything worth getting good at is frustrating until the skill is aquired. Reminds me of something I read, learning requires frustration plus curiosity before it will "stick", or something to that effect.
Gonna have to watch the rest tomorrow after I get some sleep, but I have a question for you while I'm thinking about your carrots idea.
Forgive me if I've asked before, are you familiar with Christopher Cook of The Freedom Scale? I think you two would have lots to talk about in regards to community building.
Edit: comment part 2-
While I'm not an economic expert, I noticed many similarities between your community/caret system and how diferent nations throughout the world are set up in relation to each other. Both in money systems, ie- caret to imperial exchange being analogous to international currency exchange. And with regard to hamlet values sustems being analogous to national laws.
One of the issues I see that need resolution for both our current international relations system and your inter-hamlet to imperial relations system, is the issue of criminals at scale. Who is to enforce these systems of value/law negotiation? And equally important, who do the enforcers answer to, or be punished by, when they violate a hamlet/national value/law?
Haha, yes Tonika deflected those labels right off the bat! And yes, learning requires a high tolerance for frustration, I'd say, balanced by that curiosity. And thrice yes, I do know Christopher Cook. We've had some enlightening exchanges and have a lot of mutual respect.
Excellent question on how the caret system would address criminality. I've given that some thought. I think that communities should be held responsible for the criminals they export to other places or criminal activity they allow that effects other places. Someone who is convicted of a crime in one community should be sent, under guard, to a prison in the place they were born. If the victim community doesn't feel there's justice served, or there's a continuing pattern of criminality, the victim community and others in alliance with it could deny visas and/or trade with that commonwealth until they resolve the problem. This could also be used if scams are traced back to a community.
My perspective on this is somewhat formed by my hometown in Appalachia being a major prison because space and labor is cheap. Prison guard is one of the only jobs in town. It draws the families of the imprisoned to settle there, and makes it the place that is easiest for the recently released to settle. Under my system, homeless are sent back to their home communities and recent immigrants. There's a five year moratorium on migration, including new college students. A pause to take care of our own first, and then expand to what we want.
What would be your solution? It's something we should all be thinking about.
And you asked earlier about the protocol for responses on Substack post or notes. I think of the Substack as the legacy conversation, whereas Notes disappear. So my preference is having everything cut and pasted here, if also on Notes or YT or Rumble. But it's definitely not something I lose sleep over. I'm just glad you're reading and responding, Antila Belist!
Thanks for the in depth response. I'm glad to be responding too, as I suffer frequent bouts of 'I should just STFU.' I agree about notes, they are ephemeral in nature and seem to encourage ADD en mass.
As for what I would do about criminal behavior, I think it would depend on the type of society I was living in, the severity of the offense and other quantifiers. In general, I like the methods you laid out, but I also see merit in the old testament punishments of like for like punishment. Part of me likes to be overly simplistic and equate all violation of free will (the basis of all crimes are a type of theft) and say that the victim of a theft, or the victim's surviving relatives in the case of wrongful death (theft of life), should be the ones to choose the punishment. But IDK, I haven't put as much thought/time or energy into it as you or others have.
I was continuing to think about your response, Antila, and wanted to continue. YES on the type of society and the severity of the offense. Unlike most, I'm not against the death penalty and think it's preferable to life imprisonment, even for the prisoner. From a theological perspective, I see death as a do-over. Imprisonment is torture, and people will choose death over torture--which is why prisoners aren't allowed anything with which they can take their own lives and are put in solitary confinement if they try. It's a horrible system.
The prison system also forces other people to sacrifice their lives in order to maintain a 24x7 guard while feeding, sheltering and maintaining the health of the prisoners--something that preemptively may have avoided the crime altogether.
Under my system, everyone has a way to make an honest living equal to the cost of housing in their hometown or the place they've resided for several years. That doesn't exist now. Theft of money becomes impossible. The caret is like leprechaun's gold and becomes worthless when taken out of the community. It can be replenished with a few keystrokes. It can always be traced to where it went and where it came from. It's not anonymous.
While I agree with the need for a different competitive monetary system, I believe that the idea was settled in 1860 when the northern states beat the stuffing out of the southern states trying to free themselves of the self-centered northern monetary scheme through secession as promised when entering the trap. As long as the fiat US federal reserve note is viable, you will have to compete against buy now-pay later mentality and the lure of free money from the federal (and state) government. If you obtain some success, expect a knock upon your door.
Regardless, local is the way to go everywhere and always.
Look at a dollar bill if you still carry cash. Where does it say US Treasury Note? It's a Federal Reserve Bill, yes? And we both know the Fed is a cartel of bankers that has nothing to do with the federal (aka centralized) government. The Constitution forbid the States from creating their own money. So where do you see either gov't luring people with free money? Every dollar is borrowed from the bankers. That was the point of the Federal Reserve Act. Don't blame the governments, although I agree with your statement on the so-called Civil War, which was never fought over slavery.
I haven’t stopped thinking about the conversation because I wholeheartedly believe our current monetary system sucks and is in desperate need of an overhaul. I wish I knew more on the subject of economics. I appreciate you giving me a chance to share my pedestrian perspective on it. Ultimately, I still find our challenge to lie within human behavior and the leviathan that is the pre existing empirical structure. But we can start with making sure the bankers don’t make money up out of thin air. That is a solid start.
I will share your post on my stack in the upcoming days too. Many thanks again.
I am continuing our conversation in my head also. I loved this even more listening to it. We have SO much to talk about when we see each other. But I have a feeling that will only lead to more unfinished threads pulling us together for the next time!
Your challenge is why my book blurb says that my dogma is that people are inherently good and, when they behave badly, systems and stories are to blame. If human nature is inherently good or bad, with some people morally better than other, the only solution is to get those better people to rule over all of us! That's been the argument for empire for 5000 years.
Oh wait! You said human behavior, not nature. Then my answer is that I don't tell Goddess how to do her job, which is handling all the things out of my control. I listen to find out how I can do my part. So very very happy that my joyful part has led to you!
I steer clear of telling the universe how to do her job too and perhaps that’s why she provides? She doesn’t like anyone micromanaging, I guess! 😂
Very glad to see more of this series and you both! Before this came out I was recently thinking that my go-to response to people saying "X political fight is the point of no return" is telling them they need to read How to Dismantle an Empire. That's where you saying "you stop the bankers from making money at our expense all at once or not at all" gets to the meat of it.
I've also been somewhat more disengaged from online commentary and ingesting information, but a lot of that has to do with me trying to get outside and enjoy the summer. In a time were you can generate anything that can look "good enough" I am often asking myself what actually needs to be said. It's been wonderful to see the VAL blossom and I know you'll greatly enjoy meeting! I really loved what you said Tereza about online connections often being a lot deeper and meaningful than connections via mere geography. I can personally say that's something I find myself missing a lot as my life has shifted around.
Speaking as someone a generation later, I would definitely say younger people are desperate to actually participate in the work of society, there just seem to be all these inane barriers like the ones your son-in-law encounters. I remember a conversation we had years ago Tereza, where you told me the collapse was inevitable, and I'll admit I didn't quite understand at the time. I think I'm beginning to actually see it. I jokingly told someone recently "we've run out of corners to cut and all we see are circles".
Great conversation, and I'm definitely looking forward to future installments!
I was just thinking about you, Gabe. My email from Substack became sporadic and I can't tell if people are posting and I'm not getting them, or not posting. I'm so honored to be your go-to response. Every conversation, with Victoria, with you, with Tonika, seems like it's bring that strategy to life. I've never had others seriously engage with the ideas before. In the struggle to understand it, you make it accessible to others and help me clarify my thinking and presentation. You've been so central to that process, Gabe. Thank you!
That realization--that it will happen all at once or not at all--has been a long time coming for me to formulate. I so often get people saying, 'It's going to take a long time, probably not in my lifetime.' There's as good a chance it happens in our lifetime as 50 generations from now. The conditions are optimal.
I'm glad to hear you're also getting into real life and nature. And when I thought of what I didn't want to lose from online connections, I thought of you. And Isaac Middle. I think perhaps he should be the next person I interview.
Love your phrase, 'we've run out of corners to cut and all we see are circles.' Great to hear from you and someday we'll make that in-person connection happen. Where are you in Canada?
I'm in Ottawa! I really would love to do a USA trip sometime as well. I'm assuming I'm not yet enough of a problem that crossing customs is an issue 😅
I've always appreciated your thoughtful feedback and can admit to feeling painfully disappointed when I talk to new people IRL. I'm recognizing the drastic difference between being seen physically and being actually understood. It's made being out in the world a very bittersweet experience.
I recognize the natural anti-labelism in Tonika right from the start of this video, love it!
I like your observation about being good at something comes before enjoyment and that everything worth getting good at is frustrating until the skill is aquired. Reminds me of something I read, learning requires frustration plus curiosity before it will "stick", or something to that effect.
Gonna have to watch the rest tomorrow after I get some sleep, but I have a question for you while I'm thinking about your carrots idea.
Forgive me if I've asked before, are you familiar with Christopher Cook of The Freedom Scale? I think you two would have lots to talk about in regards to community building.
Edit: comment part 2-
While I'm not an economic expert, I noticed many similarities between your community/caret system and how diferent nations throughout the world are set up in relation to each other. Both in money systems, ie- caret to imperial exchange being analogous to international currency exchange. And with regard to hamlet values sustems being analogous to national laws.
One of the issues I see that need resolution for both our current international relations system and your inter-hamlet to imperial relations system, is the issue of criminals at scale. Who is to enforce these systems of value/law negotiation? And equally important, who do the enforcers answer to, or be punished by, when they violate a hamlet/national value/law?
Haha, yes Tonika deflected those labels right off the bat! And yes, learning requires a high tolerance for frustration, I'd say, balanced by that curiosity. And thrice yes, I do know Christopher Cook. We've had some enlightening exchanges and have a lot of mutual respect.
Excellent question on how the caret system would address criminality. I've given that some thought. I think that communities should be held responsible for the criminals they export to other places or criminal activity they allow that effects other places. Someone who is convicted of a crime in one community should be sent, under guard, to a prison in the place they were born. If the victim community doesn't feel there's justice served, or there's a continuing pattern of criminality, the victim community and others in alliance with it could deny visas and/or trade with that commonwealth until they resolve the problem. This could also be used if scams are traced back to a community.
My perspective on this is somewhat formed by my hometown in Appalachia being a major prison because space and labor is cheap. Prison guard is one of the only jobs in town. It draws the families of the imprisoned to settle there, and makes it the place that is easiest for the recently released to settle. Under my system, homeless are sent back to their home communities and recent immigrants. There's a five year moratorium on migration, including new college students. A pause to take care of our own first, and then expand to what we want.
What would be your solution? It's something we should all be thinking about.
And you asked earlier about the protocol for responses on Substack post or notes. I think of the Substack as the legacy conversation, whereas Notes disappear. So my preference is having everything cut and pasted here, if also on Notes or YT or Rumble. But it's definitely not something I lose sleep over. I'm just glad you're reading and responding, Antila Belist!
Thanks for the in depth response. I'm glad to be responding too, as I suffer frequent bouts of 'I should just STFU.' I agree about notes, they are ephemeral in nature and seem to encourage ADD en mass.
As for what I would do about criminal behavior, I think it would depend on the type of society I was living in, the severity of the offense and other quantifiers. In general, I like the methods you laid out, but I also see merit in the old testament punishments of like for like punishment. Part of me likes to be overly simplistic and equate all violation of free will (the basis of all crimes are a type of theft) and say that the victim of a theft, or the victim's surviving relatives in the case of wrongful death (theft of life), should be the ones to choose the punishment. But IDK, I haven't put as much thought/time or energy into it as you or others have.
It has been a pleasure!
/bow
/hat-tip
I was continuing to think about your response, Antila, and wanted to continue. YES on the type of society and the severity of the offense. Unlike most, I'm not against the death penalty and think it's preferable to life imprisonment, even for the prisoner. From a theological perspective, I see death as a do-over. Imprisonment is torture, and people will choose death over torture--which is why prisoners aren't allowed anything with which they can take their own lives and are put in solitary confinement if they try. It's a horrible system.
The prison system also forces other people to sacrifice their lives in order to maintain a 24x7 guard while feeding, sheltering and maintaining the health of the prisoners--something that preemptively may have avoided the crime altogether.
Under my system, everyone has a way to make an honest living equal to the cost of housing in their hometown or the place they've resided for several years. That doesn't exist now. Theft of money becomes impossible. The caret is like leprechaun's gold and becomes worthless when taken out of the community. It can be replenished with a few keystrokes. It can always be traced to where it went and where it came from. It's not anonymous.
So that's just a few more thoughts.
While I agree with the need for a different competitive monetary system, I believe that the idea was settled in 1860 when the northern states beat the stuffing out of the southern states trying to free themselves of the self-centered northern monetary scheme through secession as promised when entering the trap. As long as the fiat US federal reserve note is viable, you will have to compete against buy now-pay later mentality and the lure of free money from the federal (and state) government. If you obtain some success, expect a knock upon your door.
Regardless, local is the way to go everywhere and always.
Look at a dollar bill if you still carry cash. Where does it say US Treasury Note? It's a Federal Reserve Bill, yes? And we both know the Fed is a cartel of bankers that has nothing to do with the federal (aka centralized) government. The Constitution forbid the States from creating their own money. So where do you see either gov't luring people with free money? Every dollar is borrowed from the bankers. That was the point of the Federal Reserve Act. Don't blame the governments, although I agree with your statement on the so-called Civil War, which was never fought over slavery.